Poop question

[seminolewind]

You're right, ME, it's very upsetting. There's no leg Mareks or tumorous Marek's. Marek's is a cancer-tumors that attack wherever they like. Most attack the leg nerves first. But some attack the respiratory nerves first, etc. To me what I've noticed is the first "tell" IMO is a bird that appears to be eating but is not really picking up any food. And I go along thinking they're eating, or that some bad hen taught them not to eat .


No matter what I say or think, none of the rules apply. If you read something about Marek's, it's a symptom that's "common" but does not mean it's the rule. What I've gotten used to is if someone doesn't look right, or loses weight for no reason and is "pretending" to eat, I treat for cocci, and E.coli, Enteritis, and everything with an antibiotic or two. If Corid doesn't work, they get sulfadimethoxine. I throw everything I have at them because they're going to die anyway. Most times it buys them another year or so if in with hens that are not mean. I never write them off as dying of Marek's unless they actually have leg paralysis.


Marek's is a cancer/tumor. It is also a virus that plugs into the immune system and uses it as a Marek's virus factory. The injection prevents the tumors from making their home in the chicken's nerves. However that's it. It does not prevent Marek's, or prevent spreading , and they still do have immune suppression.


My oldest were not vaccinated. The oldest at this time did hatch 2 hens prior to Marek's that were fine. But hatched 3 of her offspring later on that got paralysis and died. The oldest hen I had unvaccinated died at 11.75 years old. She had one offspring early in her years that was the 2nd one to have leg paralysis. So there was no correlation at any time with resistant babies being born. I have 3 unvaccinated hens left. And they are old. 2 Polish and 1 Jersey Giant. 10-11 years old.


Life sucks when there's nothing you can do for the innocent. I feel like chickens are so innocent and do not deserve any of this. I treat them all to an excellent life. I guess cancer itself is unfair. Get the chicks vaccinated and quarantined-no one cares about your own chickens But YOU. You will have lovely chickens and can still incubate and vaccinate. Gone is the broody hatching chicks. But I have to say that I bought 5 Polish pullet day olds,that were vaccinated, that are so affectionate and follow me around. They are a joy. But seem to be prone to bumblefoot. Prior to that I hatched and vaccinated 10 silkies 2 or so years ago. All doing well.

[dawg53]

So much for 'breeding for resistance' with Marek's which I see often in chicken forums. I've actually seen the same thing said about worms, that's a laugh too.
Karen, one sign that you mentioned; about birds pecking at food and not eating it, is also a sign of a bird that has cocci infection whether it's Marek's or not. It may not be one of the two types of cocci that causes blood in feces, it's usually the other types requiring corid or a sulfa drug as you mentioned. I see why you throw everything at them including the kitchen sink when dealing with Marek's, I'd do the same.

[chickenlady]

I agree I choose to give my chickens the best life and I want to make sure that they are as comfortable as they can be. We were even on a chicken TV show because I spoil them so much. You have helped me alot and I truly appreciate all this wonderful support and advice.

This morning everyone was eager to get down so I decided to go ahead and do more probiotic water ( big ol bird) with poultrycell added. I have lots of other vitamin supplements from Ropa Pharm, avian charge (which has fish meal in it so I’m not going to give it to them that could spin off enteritis so I think I will end up using that on my plants). I read that anything fish or too much meat could really hurt them when their intestines are inflamed. I also have Tylosin, Baytril, Oxytet, denagard as well as the All in one powder. I have acquired quite an arsenal of antibiotics and supplements over the years. It would be so nice to have healthy birds that didn’t require all these medications. I’ve had so many people tell me that it shouldn’t be this hard well I completely agree but at least now I know why it’s been so hard.

I wanted to also tell you, a couple years ago we sent a hen off for necropsy but my vet decided not to do the histopathology even though he charged me double what it would’ve cost with histopathology ( I now send them off myself ) Anyway my vet said Mareks is rare here in Texas so he was happy with the leukosis diagnosis because that’s what they thought it was. I feel like giving him a call and telling him a thing or two but it wouldn’t do any good. Can’t even trust vets with chickens it seems like.

I guess now I just need to know when it would be okay to bring in vaccinated birds after more cleaning of course? I’m not even going to go the chick route probably 6 weeks- 3 months of age. Because like your situations what if some of my current flock make it a year or two longer? I want to keep the flock numbers up to help with stress. Also, if I’m understanding correct I don’t need to be concerned about vaccinated birds bringing in different strains of Mareks? You’re saying even though there’s so many different symptoms visceral, ocular, etc it’s all the same right? Sorry for all the questions.

[chickenlady]

You’re right I do see that “breeding for resistance” what is that all about? Dawg, sounds like your situation is unique that you have kept such a closed flock. There is so much chicken swapping out there I don’t see how other people cannot vaccinate when taking in from so many different sources. But it seems like vaccinated birds are so much harder to find. When I ask other people if they vaccinated they very adamantly say no like it’s a bad thing.

[seminolewind]

Chickenlady, the best thing to do is have Day-olds and vaccinate within 24 hours. Or get day olds from the hatchery already vaccinated.

Yes, Marek's symptoms can come in any order, the most common being tumors in the leg nerve. I've also had small gasping as a first sign, as well as a non-round pupil. Or simply wasting. I've also had no symptoms on a one year old hen that had a lab necropsy and was positive for Marek's.

The types of Marek's are: virulent, very virulent, very very virulent, etc. It's about resistance strength of the virus. 95% or more of the time, hatchery day olds and chicks hatched at home have not had exposure to strength/strains that the vaccine won't work on. I think the more virulent strains are most likely found in flocks where someone buys will-nilly from everywhere including auctions where we don't know how serious their Marek's problem may be or for how long or how filthy their environment is. Also vaccinating and not quarantining would make for more resistant virus. It's a risk whenever you buy chicks that have been exposed to other chickens even if vaccinated.

I do not recall having more than one or two chicks that I've vaccinated die from Marek's. I had gotten 10 vaccinated chicks from a hatchery and lost 4 of those to Marek's, the oldest being a year old. Otherwise I've done well with vaccinating.


The problem with vets is that most of the time we have or know more than they do because we've pooled thousands of people on forums. It used to be a problem mostly with chicken growers, but in the last 20 years they have straightened up their act while we backyarders have not. So now we have the major problem. The vaccine works best when you get all your chicks at the same time and close the group. And you disinfect between batches. It's a matter of vaccinating, quarantining, and cleaning to lessen the available dander in the chicken area which helps the vaccination work better. I use Virkon because it does work on porous surfaces. Without any proof whatsoever, I do spray the dirt as well, LOL. I have a sprayer that uses a hose to spray so I can do quite a bit at a time. Everytime a bird dies of G_d knows what, I spray, scrub utensils, then lime the pen.

If those do not want Marek's in their flock, it's best to get vaccinated hatchery day old chicks or hatch your own and vaccinate, then CLose the group to new chicks or chickens unless you hatch your own or buy hatchery day olds ONLY. Period. You will have a 98% chance or better on not getting Marek's.

Vets can not look at a bird and tell whether they have Marek's or LL or which one. You need an animal disease lab to do a necropsy that does do a histology and pcr testing (DNA I think). Other than that we just have symptoms of possible infection. Or lets say you hatch chicks, and 6-12 weeks later they have paralysis one by one, chances are very very good that you have Marek's. Otherwise, it's you or your vet's guessing game unless your necropsy is thorough. And your chickens can still carry Marek's and die from something else.

Most times with cocci chickens may look sick. Most times with Marek's they have a smile on their face the whole time . The ones with Marek's appear to get lack of depth perception which makes it hard to peck at food and pick it up. And Marek's exposed birds are prone to cocci.

[seminolewind]

The vaccine is dead or from a Turkey. It cannot infect a bird or give them Marek's to spread to other birds. The vaccine "wakes up" the immune system to Marek's before it's actually needed. The immune system then protects the birds from getting the tumors, but does not protect against getting exposed from another bird and spreading the virus.

[chickenlady]

Okay that’s great information! We did a pcr and histology that’s when we found out we have Mareks and avian turberculosis.
My feed store said they can order vaccinated chicks for me but after everything you’ve said I’m not sure if that’s a good idea. I don’t know if I want them to go to the feed store first they may need to come directly to the post office so they don’t come in contact. Also there goes my chance of transitioning to bantams because bantams are always straight run and I could see myself getting 12 roosters. I do have somebody locally in the area that raises chickens for the Dallas zoo she vaccinates all of her chickens for Mareks, fowl pox and laryngotracheitis but I don’t know if I can get them 1 day old they may be a little older before she sells them.

[maryellen]

My.luck i had mareks and MG diagnosed in my flock lol.. i bought birds from a reputable breeder, on the way home 2 were sneezing and i didnt know better. After a month of Denagard that the breeder told me to use they cleared up. So into my flock they went. 1 month later 2 died and i called the state todo necropsys. Hence the double diagnosis. I had a few 4 months die recently, but didnt send them out. Everyone else is holding their own and no one is sick. The birds i got from the breeder i killed a short time after the diagnosis . They were to be part of my breeding program which got scrapped due to them infecting my flock.

[seminolewind]

Chickenlady, your best bet is to get your chicks direct from the hatchery. The less contact with anyone the better. And these chicks hatch, go down a conveyer belt, get sexed, vaccinated, and packed in a box.

I guess with Maryellen's story, I'm more aware that there are other terrible illnesses out there and also those diseases spread from mom to egg. Hatchery chick hens are supposedly free of most or all of it, especially the vertical passing diseases.

I think we all do the best we can. Nasty things happen to chickens. It's tough. I'm learning a lot from ME and Chickenlady about ailments I know very little about.

[dawg53]

I'm familiar with most common respiratory diseases. The exotic stuff is above my pay grade (that's what I call it.) Marek's and LL are two of the many.

[chickenlady]

Thanks Karen and Mary Ellen, I will definitely take your advice and go that route of the hatchery . Maryellen, same exact thing happened to me last year. The 4 girls that I brought in came from an animal biology professor from Oklahoma State University who raised chickens. I thought he was very reputable and knew what he was doing. It was four hours away and halfway home I noticed the girls were sick. With all chronic respiratory problems I already had in my flock I figured I would help them instead of return them. I figured they came from a dirty place when they wanted to meet me at the tractor supply and not their farm. When I got home their face was swollen and stunk so I knew from the smell it had to be infectious coryza or something. I was able to knock it out with Oxytet and thankfully those symptoms have never come back . But now I’m wondering if they’re the ones that brought the Mareks as well could’ve also been a few rescue girls I took a month later. I guess my days of helping unwanted chickens are definitely over. I will only go the vaccinated hatchery route here on out. Mareks is such a crazy aggressive disease that I think a lot of people really don’t understand. Its been hard for me to comprehend all of this but now I get it. Thanks Karen for explaining it so well.

[maryellen]

Yeah, the sick birds infected your flock.
You might not see symptoms but the disease is there
And technically you shouldnt be showing, since your birds are exposed to whatever those birds had you showing now risks all birds at the show

[chickenlady]

No worries there I don’t show my birds. We’ve been on a coop tour a few times and they had a boot wash with a bleach solution for when people came on the property to see our coop. Not sure if I want to be on that again considering our circumstances now.

[maryellen]

Yeah maybe no more tour. Stuff can come in on clothes too not just boots

[chickenlady]

Do any of you recommend a hatchery you’ve had success with? I have noticed that some do not vaccinate bantams but some do. My pet chicken said they guarantee their 6 week old vaccinated pullets come from a disease free environment. Wondering what your thoughts are on that as well .

[dawg53]

Aug 25, 2018 8:16:43 GMT -5 chickenlady said:

Do any of you recommend a hatchery you’ve had success with? I have noticed that some do not vaccinate bantams but some do. My pet chicken said they guarantee their 6 week old vaccinated pullets come from a disease free environment. Wondering what your thoughts are on that as well .

I've ordered chicks from My Pet Chicken many years ago. They actually take orders for Meyer hatchery. So I just order from Meyer, they are in Ohio. I've ordered from Meyer on many occasions and never had a problem with their orders or chicks; all arrived alive, safe and sound. In cooler/cold temps they provide a heating pad for warmth under the "nest" they provide in the box.
Ideal hatchery on the other hand provides many extra male chicks in the box for "warmth" purposes for the female chicks in cooler/cold temps. That's the only gripe I have with Ideal hatchery, they are in Texas. I ordered 12 chicks from them in the fall once and ended up getting about 30 male chicks in the box. They were all Leghorns. I'm glad I didnt order any female Leghorn chicks.  I had no choice but to cull the male chicks. I already had two roosters in my flock and the feed store would not accept them, no luck on Craigslist giving them away

[seminolewind]

I think I've tried them all and they are all about the same. I like Meyer and Hoover.

[seminolewind]

Jim, sometimes a different approach is needed on Craig's list. Like Free Food! Free Broilers! Poultry for Processing! I think free food works better than "roos".

[dawg53]

LOL Yeah you're right Karen, but those were thirty 3 or 4 day old chicks. I've had no problems giving away cockerals or adult roos lol.

[maryellen]

My neighbor gets her chicks from my pet chicken. She has ordered from them for years, chicks and pullets