Mareks vaccine ?

[maryellen]

www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous

[dawg53]

When ordering chicks from the two hatcheries I deal with, they ask me if I want my birds vaccinated for marek's. I always tell them 'no,' no kinds of vaccinations.

[maryellen]

Someone on a chicken forum posted this link , told someone to not get her birds vaccinated.

[seminolewind]

Let's see. If you have 10 vaccinated chicks that are exposed to Marek's, they can spread to many many more chicks in their long lifetime. If you have 10 unvaccinated chicks that are Exposed to Marek's, they will die within weeks and not have time to spread virus to many many chicks. Makes sense.

In the 70's, prior to a Marek's vaccine, 2/3 of food or egg chickens died. There was a massive shortage of chicken. After the vaccine was invented, it was supposed to keep at least 90% of chickens from dying from Marek's. But the Public or name brand producers were still having problems. The Amish taught them to vaccinate, use ALL in ALL out system with chicks, and disinfect properly between batches.

100+ years of Marek's virus, we have invented one leaky vaccine. I guess it's better than nothing but it would certainly be nice to have a great vaccine

Chickenpox vaccine must be leaky if people can still develop shingles years later. The common cold never got a vaccine that worked.

Marek's is complicated IMO. It's a virus that causes cancer, and also uses our immune system (B cells? T-cells?) to create more virus. Marek's vaccine is an "early warning system" for a body to be prepared for a Marek's exposure and prevent it. What's interesting is that these vaccinated bodies can be exposed to true Marek's virus and spread it to others without getting sick themselves.

Not only do Marek's vaccinated chicks have far far longer lives to spread far more Marek's than those chicks who are not vaccinated and die mostly 6-12 weeks and not spread as much virus. Also, what about breeders who vaccinate all their chicks and may have positive hens? How will they know if their chicks carry it if no one is dying from Marek's because their chicks are all vaccinated? I got my one and only Marek's chick from a breeder. All the other chickens I had were from a hatchery or I hatched them. I paid the price.

I am the only one who cares about my chickens. No one else. So I need to protect my own chickens by vaccinating them. If I don't, 99.9% will die. What made me know that I had Marek's is that I hatched 10 chicks with a silkie hen. At 6 -11 weeks, All suffered one by one with paralysis and loss of neck control. I was devastated. I can't tell you how sad that was.

So people can tell you to vaccinate or not. I will vaccinate because I hate getting chicks that die. I may be saving the world from many exposures when all my unvaccinated chicks die, or I can have my vaccinated chicks and enjoy them and keep a "closed flock".

[seminolewind]

Aug 23, 2018 16:36:23 GMT -5 dawg53 said:

When ordering chicks from the two hatcheries I deal with, they ask me if I want my birds vaccinated for marek's. I always tell them 'no,' no kinds of vaccinations.

You keep a closed flock.  Hatchery or hatching.  You really don't need Marek's vaccine.  

[seminolewind]

www.pbs.org/newshour/author/nsikan-akpan


This is the author of the Marek's article and a list of his many articles.  

I always look at my sources and the dates.  

This author appears to be a good writer, but not an expert on Marek's virus.  Probably not an expert on anything poultry related.  He has good points, but someone reading that and stating that people shouldn't vaccinate is just plain stupid.  

I also wonder how many of our "chicken forum experts" have lost a backyard flock to marek's, and Another, and Another and maybe had a few chickens survive?  And truly had several or more Lab necropsies done during this time to verify that their flocks were dying of Marek's?  

I've heard of people breeding for resistance and having good results.  But over 115 years scientists and researchers have not?  I have too many questions.

Look at dates on articles as well.  There's quite a bit of dated material out there as well.

[maryellen]

I think depending on the birds immune system they can build a resistance of sorts. I have 10 yr, 8yr , 7 yr old hens, one who tested positive for mareks who is still going strong. I have had pullets die within 3 days of sneezing, yet the rest didnt. Ive had a hen have a sinus infection , have surgery and bounce back fast only to die a year later.
I think the immune system if strong holds it at bay to a degree, and if the immune system is weak genetically it opens the door for a disease to strike.
So i think those that are saying they are breeding for resistance sorta are in a sense, but only in the sense of not beating the disease, just breeding the strongest survivors . Of course the weak will die, thats pretty much everywhere..

Just my opinion. Im still learning about chicken diseases .

[dawg53]

Aug 24, 2018 21:38:04 GMT -5 maryellen said:

I think depending on the birds immune system they can build a resistance of sorts. I have 10 yr, 8yr , 7 yr old hens, one who tested positive for mareks who is still going strong. I have had pullets die within 3 days of sneezing, yet the rest didnt. Ive had a hen have a sinus infection , have surgery and bounce back fast only to die a year later.
I think the immune system if strong holds it at bay to a degree, and if the immune system is weak genetically it opens the door for a disease to strike.
So i think those that are saying they are breeding for resistance sorta are in a sense, but only in the sense of not beating the disease, just breeding the strongest survivors . Of course the weak will die, thats pretty much everywhere..

Just my opinion. Im still learning about chicken diseases .

Most likely in your case ME, what I believe you're seeing are surviving MG carrier birds that appear healthy and whose immune systems are better than others. Other birds succumbed to MG and Marek's combined due to weaker immune systems. As far as resistance to Marek's and MG, I wouldnt go that far because MG is passed through eggs infecting chicks, and depending on the severity of the strain, they may not survive the hatch. If they do, they are carriers also. That's why there's closed flocks if people decide to keep MG infected birds. I dont know about Marek's.

[maryellen]

Yeah i know it can never be eradicated. But some genetics do have a say in it.
I know a breeder out here who says they breed for resistance to mareks. Even i know you cant do that. But they sell their birds and i know they had a few die from suspected mareks.

[seminolewind]

I've had all unvaccinated and half unvaccinated, I still have old birds, 3, who are not vaccinated. They claim that chickens become resistant with age. Some do with years of general resistance that is strong. Resistant does not mean bullet proof. I also had a roo who left here at 4 weeks and returned at 12-16 weeks, from my hatch, unvaccinated but lived separate within a few feet of the flock. He came back because the rest went for processing and I liked him and took him home. He lived 5 years and I don't know if Marek's finally got him but one day he couldn't breathe , then died. But I would say that the break he had away from my flock gave him time to build antibodies.

Chickens are not born resistant. An immune system has to be exposed to Marek's to develop resistance. Fighter cells have to be exposed to Marek's and build enough fighting cells to give a bird resistance. Giving a vaccine is like a "safe" exposure. It exposes fighter cells and they multiply in numbers that will resist the real thing. Maybe a chick that's exposed lightly and then move away has the opportunity to build fighter cells fast enough to build those fighter cells prior to being reexposed.

The "resistant" part most people look for is resistant birds bred and hatching resistant offspring, which has not happened yet in 100 years (consistently). I tried 3 times and the three offspring got paralysis within 8 months.

This is a lot of info I know. The info I pass on is based on my experiences, and reading books and articles on line from knowledgeable sources such as scientists and researches who work pretty specifically with Marek's and the articles or books are written within the last 10 years. There are most likely updates to this material that I have difficulty finding.

My state animal disease lab seems to only test for Marek's if they find a tumor. Otherwise I get a report that the chicken died from something else. They do not state whether the "something else" is secondary to Marek's exposure meaning immune suppression caused by Marek's and the bird dies from common things like cocci, E.coli, enteritis (clostridium) aspergillosis, or a skin injury that results in an overwhelming sepsis.

[seminolewind]

Aug 25, 2018 7:24:35 GMT -5 maryellen said:

Yeah i know it can never be eradicated. But some genetics do have a say in it.
I know a breeder out here who says they breed for resistance to mareks. Even i know you cant do that. But they sell their birds and i know they had a few die from suspected mareks.

Some chicks have been exposed and die 4-6 weeks after you get them but first infecting your flock.  Or you get chicks that are exposed to Your flock that unknowingly has Marek's and the chicks die 4-6 weeks later.  

Or you get unvaccinated non exposed chicks that come to your Marek's free flock and they all live happily.  Or you get unexposed, vaccinated and quarantined chicks that come to your Marek's free flock and they all live happily.

There is nothing I can say about a wild bird who's territory includes a Marek's infected flock.  How much area would a wild bird cover?  A neighborhood?   

If someone is Serious about breeding for resistance, or gives advice or states they are having positive results with their program, they should be having professional testing and written results of their findings.  If they can't provide this, I think they are full of crap.  

[seminolewind]

If genetics could produce resistant chicks, over 115 years wouldn't they have eradicated the problem? According to that initial author's written theory about the dangers of vaccinated chicks, the resistant chicks would live years longer and produce many many more resistant chicks that spread resistant genes while the Marek's infected chicks would die within a few months leaving less and less resistant chicks.

[maryellen]

I saw on one fb group people were trying to breed resistance to mg. A few said they did as they had the state come out and test every 6 months, and they gave denagard as a maintenance program every 3 months.

I dont know if its all true or not

[seminolewind]

Okay so if the birds are getting an antibiotic every 3 months, is that really resistance?

[maryellen]

Denagard isnt an antibiotic that i know of as anyone can buy it on amazon. I think the people think it works as maintenance, but im not sure. Some woman said her flock tests clean every year of mg with using the denagard. . The only thing i can think of is the denagard suppresses the mg enough to test clear.



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Home › Vet › Denagard Liquid Concentrate 12.5%
Denagard Liquid Concentrate 12.5%
This page contains information on Denagard Liquid Concentrate 12.5% for veterinary use.
The information provided typically includes the following:

Denagard Liquid Concentrate 12.5% Indications
Warnings and cautions for Denagard Liquid Concentrate 12.5%
Direction and dosage information for Denagard Liquid Concentrate 12.5%

Denagard Liquid Concentrate 12.5%
This treatment applies to the following species:

Swine

Manufacturer: Elanco (Farm Animal)

(tiamulin)

12.5% Tiamulin hydrogen fumarate

NADA 140-916, Approved by FDA
Description

Denagard (tiamulin) Liquid Concentrate is a solution containing 12.5% tiamulin hydrogen fumarate (w/v) in an aqueous solution. The active ingredient, tiamulin, chemically is 14-desoxy-14-[(2-diethylaminoethyl) mercaptoacetoxy] mutilin hydrogen fumarate, a semi-synthetic diterpene antibiotic. Denagard Liquid Concentrate is for use only in preparing medicated drinking water for swine.

Actions: Tiamulin is active against Brachyspira (formerly Serpulina or Treponema) hyodysenteriae and Actinobacillus pleuropneumoniae. It is readily absorbed from the gut and can be found in the blood within 30 minutes after dosing.
Denagard Liquid Concentrate 12.5% Indications

Denagard (tiamulin), when administered in the drinking water for five consecutive days, is an effective antibiotic for the treatment of swine dysentery associated with Brachyspira (formerly Serpulina or Treponema) hyodysenteriae susceptible to tiamulin at a dose level of 3.5 mg tiamulin hydrogen fumarate per pound of body weight daily and for treatment of swine pneumonia due to Actinobacillus pleuropneumoniae susceptible to tiamulin when given at 10.5 mg tiamulin hydrogen fumarate per pound of body weight daily.
Contraindications

Swine being treated with Denagard (tiamulin) should not have access to feeds containing polyether ionophores (e.g., monensin, lasalocid, narasin, salinomycin and semduramicin) as adverse reactions may occur.
Warning
Keep out of reach of children. Avoid contact with skin. Direct contact with skin or mucous membranes may cause irritation.

Withdraw medicated water 3 days before slaughter after treatment at 3.5 mg per pound and 7 days before slaughter following treatment at 10.5 mg per pound body weight.
Denagard Liquid Concentrate 12.5% Caution

For use in drinking water of swine only. Prepare fresh medicated water daily. The effects of tiamulin on swine reproductive performance, pregnancy and lactation have not been determined. For animal use only - not for use in humans.
Adverse Reactions
Overdoses of Denagard have sometimes produced transitory salivation, vomiting and an apparent calming effect on the pig. If signs of toxicity occur, discontinue use of medicated water and replace with clean, fresh water.

In rare cases, redness of the skin primarily over the ham and underline has been observed during medication. If these signs appear, discontinue use of this drug. Provide ample clean drinking water. Thoroughly rinse (hose down) the housing to remove urine and feces from animal contact surfaces or move the animals to clean pens. If the condition persists, consult your veterinarian.

Studies to evaluate the safety of the water soluble form of tiamulin in breeding swine have not been done.

Use Directions: Do not use undiluted.

The concentration of tiamulin in the drinking water must be adjusted to compensate for variation in water consumption due to weight or size of the pig, environmental temperature and other factors. It is important that pigs receive the proper drug dose, 3.5 mg tiamulin hydrogen fumarate per pound for swine dysentery or 10.5 mg tiamulin hydrogen fumarate per pound for swine pneumonia, each day for 5 consecutive days.
Table 1

Approximate daily water consumption per pig.

Pig Weight, lb


Water Intake, gal.

20


0.3 - 0.5

45


0.4 - 1.1

75


0.7 - 1.5

125


1.0 - 2.0

180


1.2 - 3.0

Note:

1. Prepare fresh medicated drinking water every day for the 5 day treatment period.

2. Water medicated with Denagard should be the only source of drinking water during the treatment period.
Directions For Preparing Denagard Medicated Solutions

Determine the amount of Denagard Liquid Concentrate needed to medicate the desired volume of drinking water at the proper concentration. Carefully measure out this amount, add it to the water and stir to thoroughly mix.

Table 2 Denagard Liquid Concentrate




One Liter

Net tiamulin hydrogen fumarate content:


125,000 mg

Disease to be treated:


Swine Dysentery


Swine Pneumonia

Daily tiamulin hydrogen fumarate required per pound body weight:


3.5 mg


10.5 mg

Required treatment duration:


5 days


5 days

Pig body weight this bottle will treat for ONE day:


35,714 lb


11,905 lb

Number of pigs this bottle will treat for ONE day:

Pig Wt, lb







20


1,786


595

45


794


264

75


476


159

125


286


95

180


198


66

Suggested final dilution of:

1 bottle (1 Liter)


550 gal


-

3 bottles (3 Liters)


-


550 gal

1/4 bottle (0.25 Liters)


137 gal


46 gal

3/4 bottle (0.75 Liters)


-


137 gal

Tiamulin hydrogen fumarate concentration per gallon at suggested final dilution*


227 mg

(60 ppm)


681 mg

(180 ppm)

*Note: Increase or decrease dilution rate as required to obtain proper daily drug dose.

Directions for using Denagard In medicated proportioners: One liter of Denagard Liquid Concentrate mixed with water to make four gallons of stock solution and this stock solution metered at one fluid ounce per gallon will provide 227 mg of tiamulin hydrogen fumarate per gallon to 550 gallons of drinking water for treatment of swine dysentery. Three liters of Denagard Liquid Concentrate mixed with water to make four gallons of stock solution and this stock solution metered at one fluid ounce per gallon will provide 681 mg tiamulin hydrogen fumarate per gallon to a total of 550 gallons of drinking water for treatment of swine pneumonia.

One-half liter (500 mL) of Denagard Liquid Concentrate mixed with water to make two gallons of stock solution and this stock solution metered at one fluid ounce per gallon will provide 227 mg of tiamulin hydrogen fumarate per gallon to 275 gallons of drinking water for treatment of swine dysentery. Use 1.5 liters (1,500 mL) of Denagard Liquid Concentrate in two gallons of stock solution to be metered at one fluid ounce per gallon to deliver 681 mg per gallon to a total of 275 gallons of drinking water for treatment of swine pneumonia.

One-quarter liter (250 mL) of Denagard Liquid Concentrate diluted with water to make one gallon of stock solution and this stock solution metered at one fluid ounce of drinking water with a medication proportioner will provide 227 mg of tiamulin hydrogen fumarate per gallon to 137 gallons of drinking water for treatment of swine dysentery.

Use 0.75 liters (750 mL) of Denagard Liquid Concentrate per gallon of stock solution to be metered at one fluid ounce per gallon to provide 681 mg per gallon to 137 gallons of drinking water for treatment of swine pneumonia.

In barrels or tanks: One-tenth liter (100 mL) of Denagard Liquid Concentrate will medicate 51 gallons of drinking water at 227 mg per gallon for treatment of swine dysentery or 17 gallons at 681 mg per gallon for treatment of swine pneumonia.

Measure Denagard Liquid Concentrate carefully, pour into the proper amount of water and thoroughly mix. The concentration of tiamulin hydrogen fumarate in the stock solution and in the drinking water delivered must be adjusted to compensate for variation in water consumption by pigs due to body weight, environmental and other factors. It is important that the pigs receive the proper drug dose of 3.5 mg of tiamulin hydrogen fumarate per pound of body weight daily for 5 consecutive days for treatment of swine dysentery or a dose of 10.5 mg per pound body weight daily for 5 consecutive days for treatment of swine pneumonia.

Attention: If no response to treatment is obtained within 5 days re-establish the diagnosis. Failure of response may be related to the presence of non-susceptible organisms of other complicating disease conditions. Because of the tendency for the disease to recur on premises with a history of swine dysentery or with swine pneumonia, a control program should be implemented after treatment. Drugs are not substitutes for proper sanitary measures or good management, but should be used in conjunction with such practices.

Container Size

Active Ingredients

Liter bottles (33.8 fl oz; 1000 mL)


12.5% (125.0 g) Tiamulin hydrogen fumarate
Active Ingredient

This bottle contains 4.33 oz (125.0 g) tiamulin hydrogen fumarate in solution.

Protect from direct sunlight. Store at controlled room temperature, 59 °-77 °F (15 °-25 °C).

Observe expiration date.

Restricted Drug (California): Use only as directed

Denagard® is a registered trademark of Novartis AG

Marketed for: Novartis Animal Health US, Inc., Greensboro, NC 27408 U.S.A.




Product




One Liter (1.057 Quarts)

(33.8 fl oz; 1000 mL)


607728


NAH/DEN-LC/12.5/LB/5

NAC No.: 1114111.1
ELANCO US, INC.
Distributed by ELANCO ANIMAL HEALTH
2500 INNOVATION WAY, GREENFIELD, IN, 46140
Main Switchboard: 317-433-4800
Customer Service: 317-276-1262
Small Animal Product Customer Service: 888-545-5973
Technical Services: 800-428-4441
Fax: [phone]
Website: www.elanco.com
Email: [e-mail]
Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of the Denagard Liquid Concentrate 12.5% information published above. However, it remains the responsibility of the readers to familiarize themselves with the product information contained on the US product label or package insert.

Copyright © 2018 North American Compendiums. Updated: 2018-08-01
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[seminolewind]

Hmm, if when you are born you are resistant to something, it must be due to a general healthy strong immune system, or an exposure at some point. The immune system has a general army that fights any foreign cells. If not, you build resistance by exposure. A vaccine is a dead or sterile bacteria or virus that provides a safe exposure. The immune system builds antibodies once it's been exposed to a foreign body. What we want is an exposure that's not going to give the disease to the bird. So the vaccine must be dead or changed in some way that provides an exposure without causing the disease.

This is why people get their childhood immunizations. Wouldn't you want your children to be exposed safely to terrible diseases instead of getting them? If they get a vaccine for rubella, it's a "safe" exposure that causes the body to build specific antibodies to kill off specific disease. It's not magic. It's not genetics. Genetics provides a "general" immune response that's good enough for fighting off diseases in a general way, not a specific way.

I get a flu shot every year. It can refresh the memory of the immune system's specific antibodies against type A flu. Then they add a safe exposure to whatever the popular flu out there is. I cannot tolerate the flu. I'd rather have a safe exposure to it with a vaccine than to be left without the antibodies to fight it when the real thing comes along. My immune system needs that refresher/exposure to fight off the real thing.

It's all about exposure to a disease that gets a body to respond with building the army specific to the enemy. There is no other way to produce resistance, except for having a super immune system that has enough power to fight anything -for a while at least.

People think they just get a shot and the shot protects them when it's actually a shot that gets a response from a body to fight the disease.

So I would like to hear someone explain how they breed for resistance. We are not even born resistant to many diseases, flu, colds, smallpox, polio, rubella, whooping cough, TB, cholera, herpes, tetanus, etc. We need that safe exposure/vaccine that creates our resistance. How many babies are born naturally resistant to any of these?

[seminolewind]

You can buy some antibiotics online like Tylan, penicillin, sulfadimethoxine, and oxycillin.

[seminolewind]

I don't understand how Denegard is not an antibiotic? I read that it is.

[maryellen]

I am not sure, maybe denagard is an antibiotic?
I know a few people whose dogs got their annual vaccines and had severe reactions to them and can never have certain vaccines again. Maybe the immune system.is like that.
I still dont believe the people who say they got resistant birds. If that was truly the case everyone and their mother would be doing the same thing and all the birds would be resistant..

[artemis]

Chickenpox vaccine must be leaky if people can still develop shingles years later.

Mom had chickenpox when she was a child, long before the vaccine was developed. She got shingles in her later years, it is something about chicken pox itself that stays in the system.